Via the Israeli Navy…. click here if the video doesn’t work right.
More on the Typhoon stabilized gun here.
A retired Navy Commander.
To parphrase a line from Tom Clancy’s Red Storm Rising:
‘Damn! We gotta get us some of those!’
I heartily agree, Commander, THAT is what littoral combat is all about.
A stabilized gun that needs no through deck fittings?
Looks like a winner for a cheap inshore fleet.
I sort of envisioned an 8″ or so caliber cannon firing a 460-pound rocket-assisted, fin-stabilized, GPS-guided projectile upwards of 40km. Something capable of destroying hardened command bunkers, gun emplacements, radar installations, and anti-ship missile bunkers…. and NOT a missile that costs more than $1 mil per copy. URR
You’re talking about my buddy, the MK71.
How about that? I was involved in a short-lived development effort to adapt the stabilized and remotely directed mount from the LAV for use on small comabatant craft back in the 80s. The similarities between that mount and the Typhoon are..natural enough. It was a short-lived development effort with one small demonstration firing at sea (including Hellfire….) short-lived because…we didn’t then and do not now build small capable combatant craft, we only burn money developing concept designs for them every decade or so and then shelve them.
Our USN employs this stabilized gun system as the Mk 38 Mod 2 Gun……..
@AMIGuy but not the missile component, which would make for a very nice force multiplier.
Ken & Bill speak with big medicine.
$1M per missile? I doubt it. Isn’t that a SPIKE-ER?
Would be interesting to see us try a similar lash-up with Javelin or Hellfire, although to be honest, NETFIRES will provide similar capability with a large VLS magazine.
Best I recall from our playtime with LTV’s mount, it would support various combinations of Hellfire missiles, a 50-cal, Stingers, a 30mm gun, and the 19-tube 2.75″ rocket launcher. We did not test all combinations and the Hellfires we did test were not the standard helo version which, as it turned out, had a little ‘trouble’ with backscatter from the sea surface that necessitated a change of fruits order for all hands. ;-^
Suffice to say, however, we did demonstrate that a lot of ‘mission configurable’ firepower could be supported by one light-weight robotic mount, with integral FLIR, laser and other acquisition and tracking sensors with minimal deck penetration or foundation requirement, suitable for small craft in the 80′ to 140′ LOA range we were considering it for.
oops..that should have read “were the standard helo version”..not “were not the standard helo version..”
I believe there was work to integrate Javelin with the Stryker RWS. Not sure about any naval mounts though. Hellfire has been tested from an RWS mounted on a CB90 patrol boat. But, IIRC, if the RWS carries Hellfire, it can’t carry a gun. Hellfire also requires laser designation, which adds additional complexity.
With Javelin, I’d be worried about firing it against moving vessels. The seeker might be distracted by wake and spray. Plus it’s fire and forget, so you better be sure there are only bad guys downrange. If there are friendlies nearby, you wouldn’t want to risk the missile deciding to change targets on you.
The nice thing about Spike LR/ER is even if you can’t get a lock, you can still fly the round into the target manually.
UltimaRatioReg, I don’t think an 8″ gun will fit on any vessel in the Israeli Navy, let alone the Shaldag or Super Dvora patrol boat that probably took these videos.
B.Smitty noted “Hellfire also requires laser designation, which adds additional complexity.”
Yes, but. If your ‘end user’ community likes the idea of being able to have their ‘little boat’ be capable of tossing Hellfires up and toward some very specific or ‘over the horizon’ target that one of their guys will be busy lasing from an appropriate vantage point on shore…..
And there was planned a sea-variant of the missile that had a seeker head more suited to the anit-ship role.
Don’t forget your “little boat” being able to deploy Firescout.
Note that it doesn’t take a half billion dollar 3000 ton (bareboat price) ship for this kind of work…
Toys like Firescouts and USVs were barely being thunk of when we were trying to develop that gun mount I spoke of. Heck, SDVs were new then and a rib was something Adam gave to Eve. Being old and senile, I forgot to mention, that LTV mount had the benefit of being completely retracted down in to its own shallow compartment, something the signatures guys were all hot and slobbery about.
Besides, fast ferry’s carry Firescouts…
Bingo, Sid. Superb craft those..as are also those of similar size and capabilities produced by Abeking, B&V and others in Germany, Damen in Holland, Umoe in Norway..
But we don’t need those.
Bill and Sid,
Those are nice craft, but how do we deploy and support them in forward areas with no friendly land basing nearby?
Supporting a handful might not be a problem, but once you get past that, they’ll need dedicated motherships to transport and support them.
Hellfires would be an interesting capability, but maybe we should just wait for Netfires, which will give you all of that and a lot more in a convenient VLS.
Plus, who wants to manhandle a 100lb Hellfire up on the deck of a pitching patrol boat to reload the launcher?
You can get a detailed assessment of the enhanced version of the Typhoon combining the Spike ER missiles and remotely controlled stabilized gun, on defense Update news. http://www.defense-update.com/newscast/1208/analysis/301208_israelnavyspiketyphoon.html
All good points Smitty..and I have handled enough Hellfires and 2.75 ordnance to know I wouldn’t want to be doing it on the deck of a small boat in a seaway. In fact, I’d rather not have anything at all in my hands so that both are free for grabbing..
Netfires looks good to me…more ‘new stuff’ that wasn’t around as an option when we were contemplating how to ‘put big bangs on small boats’. Looks a lot like the (cancelled I believe) Titan/L3 “Affordable Weapon System” but smaller…
Various ‘mother ship’ concepts and conops have certainly been kicked around. We always seemed to run up against the same brick wall where the capabilities and payload wanted/specified always, in the end, drove a small craft design that was too large to be ‘mothered’.
That seems to be the general problem with motherships – their daughters get too big for them.
The best proposal I’ve seen is to use a FLO/FLO like the Dockwise Yacht Express (http://www.yacht-transport.com/yachtexpress) or Dock Express (http://www2.dockwise.com/files/images/DW0204407_UW_FOL_DOCK_EXPRESS_10-12_0.pdf) to transport and support significant numbers of boats of various sizes. Such a ship could also carry barges of various types for refueling and supporting the boats and their crews.
If you just considered square dimensions, the Yacht Express could carry up to 30 Super Dvoras. That’s a nice little squadron.
The big, open deck also lets you vary the types of craft to match the situation (e.g. LCACS, LCUs, LCMs, Cyclones, Mark Vs, or USCG RB-Ms).
Excellent point B Smitty, but do you risk a half billion dollar (bareboat), 3000 ton ship…built to the lowest survivability standard…in a a battlespace where this can happen in a heartbeat?
That particular engagement wasn’t the most sucessful…
Wanna take bets on the next one?
Sweden has been using Hellfire as a shore based coastal defense missile since the late 80′s.
“As a result of this development, the US Navy announced in October 1988 that it was to conduct a series of test launches to evaluate the Hellfire as an anti-ship system.”
What happened with that program?
You’re right, of course, the 8″ tube probably weighs more than the Shaldag. But you know us fire supporters, the bigger the hole is, the happier we are…
An LCS would have to stand off at a safe distance and use its USVs and UAVs to approach the target. They could then designate targets for Netfires fired from the LCS.
An LCS would have to stand off at a safe distance…
“Safe” would mean beyond visual range, as Hezbollah obtained their intital targeting information with the good ‘ole Mk1 Mod0 Eyeball…
The right kind of netted assests can extend that stealthy targeting ability out to NLOS range and beyond…
Certainly sanitizing the area of “netted assets” would be a precondition for any attack of this type.
Using Fire Scouts and Netfires, the LCS could stay over the horizon and still mount this type of strike.
OTOH, the patrol boats in this video had to get within ATGM range to launch their Spikes and fire 30mm.
Chanting from PPT does not add to the conversation.
The LCS IS supposed to use standoff afforded by unmanned systems as part of its defense, right?
And if you believe that I have some beautiful waterfront property in the wonderful nation of Afghanistan. LCS: Little Crappy Ship. Or as the CDR puts it, Tiffany Navy.
Render; The answer to your “what happened” to the anit-ship Hellfire is hidden in the article you linked to:
“The second option covers the integration of the missile in a stabilized platform for installation aboard a naval surface effects ship. Four ship launches are planned this Summer to demonstrate the weapon’s coastal, harbour and shiplane defence capabilities.”
We conducted the tests described..we designed the “naval surface effects ship” and she was commissioned as the specwar craft “Origami”, keeping alive the name given to a long succession of similar ships. Only her ability to inflict paper cuts…..oops, sorry..have not taken my cynicism medicine yet this morning.
Certainly sanitizing the area of â€śnetted assetsâ€ť would be a precondition for any attack of this type.
That won’t happen smitty…For one thing, its against maritime law
Hit the button too soon…
Set up a cordon sanitaire in the littorals, and you have just solved the issue of continuous surveillance for your enemy…He will know where to tweak his targeting solution.
If we are discussing littoral combat, we should also take a look at requirements for amphibious operations, projecting combat power either across a beach, or into an SPOD. Sid’s point that the enemy knows you’re coming speaks to the survivability of any platform involved. Amphib ops has been described as “subtle as a loud belch at Communion”. So we need to ensure that we are not relying on being able to locate, target, and have effect on every single enemy weapon system as a precondition for execution. Despite our technological sophistication, this is nearly impossible to achieve.
URR, so happens I was just reading a NWC paper on this very subject…
Back to the Future: Staying Power and Operational Protection of the Sea Base
Additional survivability needs to be built into the assets as more combat power is concentrated in the Sea Base and as a potential enemyâ€™s tactical success can have strategic implications. A single hit not only has the potential to be a probable mission kill, but may have significant political effect and deny access or question Sea Shield effectiveness.
Staying power in warships has become a pejorative term conjuring up visions of battleships laden with heavy armor and torpedo belts on the hull. This type of staying power was essential in the large caliber gun age prior to missiles and fire control radar. Staying power today, as promoted by this paper, is a design where a vessel does not have to withstand a barrage attack, but one where it must not succumb to a mission kill after a single missed point attack.
Interesting. Maybe we will go back to the future enough to conclude that the “iron mountain” isn’t such a bad idea. After all, conditions for failure of US amphibious operations have seldom been defeat by the enemy in combat ashore, but rather the loss of support capability for the landing force.
the enemy knows youâ€™re coming…
When it comes to operating in the littorals somebody is going to see you.
Here is an example…
Several reasons for the lack of interdiction and counter-drug activities in the Colombian area were given by interviewees. Some suggested that Colombian police and Navy vessels were in the region at the same time, either warding away potential suspects or apprehending them without Stilettoâ€™s assistance. Others suggested that people in Colombia knew Stiletto was in the area because of information leaks. As an example, the crew stated that one could â€śGoogle Stiletto and find updated data, pictures etc. The Saturday evening before Stiletto deployed [we] painted the roof a white color; by that Monday, pictures of Stiletto with a white roof were on the internet.â€ť When the crew researched Stiletto, they found deployment dates and port stops listed online. Additionally others suggested that the lack of interdictions may be due to the stealth-like appearance of Stiletto because it attracts a lot of attention. â€śIt was impossible for Cartagena citizens to not know about Stiletto. To pull into port there, you have to pull by all the high rises. We deployed at all hours, day and night; it was too cool looking for people not to know we were there.â€ť
Seems the USN was surprised by this fact of life…
Wow, Sid. Every 2nd Lt is taught to consider your unit under observation at all times… One would think the lesson would stick.
Reminds me of the ship’s crest allowed by RSwN for ‘Smyge’..a blank one with nothing but the blue background. It was a joke of sorts..”Attention. We are a stealth craft so you cannot see us. That is an order”
After all, conditions for failure of US amphibious operations have seldom been defeat by the enemy in combat ashore, but rather the loss of support capability for the landing force.
Well URR, seems the mentality is, “We haven’t been shot at in 60 plus years, therefore it won’t happen…Besides, due to our superior systems and tactics, we will always be able to avoid the threat.”
Or perhaps the idea that war is even a factor isn’t even getting recognized at all, due to fiscal “realities”…
Although plans call for the Navy to buy another ship similar to the America â€” which will form the â€śAmerica class,â€ť a spokeswoman with Naval Sea Systems Command confirmed â€” the second ship could nonetheless be radically different. It could have a similar design, but not be a warship. Instead, the second America could be built to civilian standards, not military; have a civilian crew and master; and operate under Military Sealift Command.
Under that scenario, it would have no built-in weapons, likely have a radically different internal design from the first America and be operated more like an MSC auxiliary than a Navy warship.
Seems we will never learn how silly “fiscal reality” sounds when it collides with “warfighting reality”. Throughout the ’90s, one could watch “think outside the box” often morph into “stupidly ignore warfighting fundamentals” for budgetary reasons.
An outstanding book is “The Amphibians Came to Conquer”, about Adm RK Turner and the maturing of USN amphibious doctrine in the Pacific War. Should be required reading for those proposing non-warships in our amphib fleet. Will look very much forward to the panel at AFCEA West on shipbuilding this year…
Seems the calculus is a bit flawed…
Or… lies, damned lies and statistics…
“If its not resolved in the model, it doesn’t exist…”
Development of a heterogeneous model that goes past the uniformity of platform, weapon system, and unit targeting inherent in the present Littoral Combat Model. Given the complex and multi-faceted nature of littoral naval combat, especially those that concern amphibious warfare, a model that can deal with destruction of amphibious ships not involved fundamentally in the firing process would be an important step.
Bein’s that prior to debarkation amphibs are the most valuable assets, that should be an imperative step….
conditions for failure of US amphibious operations have seldom been defeat by the enemy in combat ashore, but rather the loss of support capability for the landing force.
Here is another paper pertinent to the discussion…
The positional superiority of sea-basing over lodgement is also questionable. Does sea-basing truly provide a stronger positional advantage than a lodgement? Such a perceived
advantage is suspect, given that the very littoral threats–submarines and anti-ship missiles, if not mines–that OMFTS proponents argue justify and necessitate a shift from traditional
doctrine, would also certainly threaten sea-basing, the logistic bedrock of OMFTS-STOM.
The loss of the Atlantic Conveyor and the subsequent impact on lift (with the loss of Wessex helicopters, U.K. Marines had to walk to Port Stanley from San Carlos Water) [most noteworthy is this was a mission she was never "intended" to perform...but Woodward had to go with what he had...and lost the bet] for U.K. forces in the Falklands Conflict certainly bears this out.30
I will enjoy reading that.
At EW07 in Md, I had an Aussie LtCol ask why we insisted on this “silly-ass OMFTS nonsense”. He asked if we were really trying to have our most valuable assets destroyed with least valuable enemy weapons. In fact, he cited the Falklands and the loss of the Atlantic Conveyor as his example. Despite the funny hat and the Crocodile Dundee accent, he had a point. URR
LCS is a ponzi scheme. The way procurement and fleet “requirements” hhave become, the US Navy couldn’t order a Boston Whaler with out paying over 1,000,000,000 a copy! Come on didnt we send a lot of officers to business school? Where is the profit from that shore duty detour?
As far as resupply for the LCS and Hellfire or whatever… I wouldn’t be too concerned about resupply for missiles at sea. Even in a pitching sea. We always got the crew back aboard after liberty!
As far as resupply for the LCS and Hellfire or whateverâ€¦
I will have to defer to URR on this one…
What doctrine is in place for dispersal of munitions for a deployment of, say, NETFIRES?
sid, are you asking about logistical “doctrine” here? If so, I’d wager that the current answer is little to none. There may be something written on paper, but it won’t be real until the fleets get their hands on it, try it, and find out it doesn’t work.
sid, are you asking about logistical â€śdoctrineâ€ť here?
I was actually referring to deployment in the field to mitigate the threat of counterbattery fire.
Sorry, just don’t know all that jarhead lexicon so much, except for “Fire Mission Target Number”, “Shot!”, and “Splash Out”
Sid and Ken,
The original tactical deployment advantage of NETFIRES was to be able to mass fires quickly from dispersed firing units. Not a new concept, as this is what a Battalion and Regimental FDC does in the good ol’ cannon FA. But the system of target acquisition and engagement is much slicker and can be done from a bunch of platforms, including the AC-130, theoretically. NETFIRES is now called something else, which escapes me at the moment, but the LCS was considered to be a participating platform, carrying a modular missile “box” of 16 (?).
The logistical challenge begins immediately, as resupply of these “missiles in a box” doesn’t appear to be an easy task, and the numbers available for prolonged combat are questionable. In addition, the missiles are EXPEN$$$IVE, and C2 remains a challenge. Not from a functional sense but from a warfighting sense. Who controls? What echelon? And then, what is left for the other echelons?
NLOS. That is the new name for NETFIRES. NLOS LS is the missile in a box system. NLOS C is the excaliber and 155mm howitzer. URR