25th

Why We Fight, Part 2

September 2010

By

Terrible, disturbing video of Afghanistan’s Sharia law.

A woman, tied to the ground and helpless, being stoned to death.

A month after a couple (above) accused of having an affair were also stoned to death.

Just in case there are questions, Ahmedinejad’s Iran has the following in the Islamic Penal Code of Iran:

Article 102:

The stoning of an adulterer or adulteress shall be carried out while each is
placed in a hole and covered with soil, he up to his waist and she up to a line above her breasts.

Whatever the political rhetoric, we ought daily to remember that our men and women fighting our Global War on Terror are battling an evil just as terrible and dark as our parents and grandparents did in the Second World War.

We should also remember that when American servicemen and women commit crimes on the battlefield, it is an incredibly rare aberration which carries with it trial and punishment under the law.

Our Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines put themselves at risk to keep from harming innocents. Our enemy preys on them. Women, seven-year-old boys.

General Mattis knew of what he spoke.

*******************************************

Forgot: H/T to Lex.




Posted by UltimaRatioReg in Air Force, Army, Foreign Policy, Marine Corps, Navy


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  • Byron

    Yeah, “religion of peace” at work…

  • Paul

    <> Geezum crow– what human would write a law like this and then say “OK, this reflects my god’s wishes…”

    Why isn’t stuff about this out there every day? ‘Course, given the sad state of what people actually consider “important” I probably shouldn’t be surprised. Told a fellow teacher that my group was going to do a 1:1 scale model of one of the pyramids of Giza on the grounds, she didn’t know what that was (weather balloons, and surveyor’s tape if you’re curious)! She’s an adult and didn’t know what the Great Pyramid was? That’s sad.

    I know relying on national media, either right or left, to put this stuff out isn’t worth the pixels to write a letter, but what else is available? Peter’s book was an eye-opener, but this is above and beyond.

  • Byron

    Paul, I gave up on the national news media years ago, about 5 minutes after I found the big four: CDR Salamander, Neptunus Lex, BlackFive and The Stupid Shall Be Punished. Now, with USNI, its the Big Five.

    Paul, if you didn’t read it at one of those five places, it’s only fit to wrap yesterdays fish in.

  • Paul

    Hi Byron–

    Never really bother with the news anyways– I got a bit annoyed when “reporters” allow someone their interviewing to say something totally nonsensical, stupid, or just plain bullshit and no one challenges the answer– I gave up. I prefer watching the local news where I can hear about how Pete’s barn burned down and he lost 120 head of cows, or how there’s a patriot ride this weekend for one of the local guard members paying the supreme price and would people please line the roads in respect. That’s the extent of what I watch.

    What scares me isn’t the volume of news, but the utter and total lack of analysis and more importantly, questioning by the media and the effect of spin doctors on the discourse. Some institution just did a study where they found that when the zealots of either side are presented with the facts of anything they passionately believe in, rather than changing their viewpoint it just makes them more hardline for their side. That’s not rational in my small opinion.

    I see what we discuss here and this isn’t rocket science– there’s a lot of nasty stuff starting to ramp up with HUGE implications for us. The dust up in the South China Sea with Japan as one example. Yet, nothing ever seems to go beyond this forum. I get my local rag primarily to see if I won the football pool for the week before (it’s another building decade for the Bills) and whether or not my students were published and there’s been nothing on the cobbled together from the wires page of international news about this event. And it’s big news!

    Makes me wonder if there was an internet in 1941 and the discussions here would take the stuff from that time period and whether or not any of the posters would ask “Anyone see the Japanese carriers lately?” and “Why is MacA lining up his planes in a row in Manila?”

  • Byron

    You’d be surprised at the power of these little blogs and how they’ve made the media sit up and take notice. Case in point was a piece of work in Houston impersonating an office with medals. It took less than two days to get a name, two weeks to convince the Feds to look into the case, and within two months getting him charged with the Stolen Valor Act. In that case, a LOT of blogs with a large network of readers who worked together to find this POS and then to pressure the FBI into getting the US Attorney’s office to go after the guy and get an indictment. THAT’S power, and it came from people like you and me who found an outlet of information that works both ways…something the media quit doing ages ago.

    Ask around. You’d be surprised at the number of times that milblogs have forced a complacent establishment into taking action.

  • http://www.coatneyhistory.com Lou Coatney

    And WE are condemned internationally for continuing capital punishment, “humane” or otherwise.

    And it should be remembered that half the people on death row in Illinois were proven to be innocent by Northwestern Univ. law students, which moved then-Gov. George Ryan to suspend the death penalty in Illinois.

    (Actually, I’m for the death penalty, but not when the law is so incompetent, uncaring, and/or corrupt that it arrests and convicts innocent people so frequently.)

    Then there are all our own crimes in our misconduct of the Afghanistan war, some of which I mentioned under the previous Why We Fight column, which are internationally known and condemned but which this blog blithely overlooks.

    Such bias and hypocrisy breeds more war crimes, strategic disaster, and our complete and utter destruction.

  • UltimaRatioReg

    Moral relativism is the wave of the future, Lou?

  • http://fareastcynic.com Skippy-san

    There is only one problem with underlying treatise here-this is not why we fight. In theory we are there to reduce the threat to our own shores and little else. The idea that we can somehow “remake” the Middle East has been exposed as the impossible dream it always was. That we can fix things like this to some degree is a bonus-but for every country were are and this used to occur- there are other countries like Nigeria, Congo, and Pakistan ( who we have not and will not invade) where this goes on and has gone on for years.

    We invaded Afghanistan because we were attacked on 9-11. We took down the government of the country and then turned our attention to Iraq and left the Afghan government to become corrupt and an enabler of that which you decry. Now after nine years they have shown very little improvement-and probably will not do so over the next nine years.

    Moral outrage is a weak basis for foreign policy. Narrow minded pursuit of national interest is. Otherwise, why aren’t we invading all the other countries in the world where similar outrages occur?
    That is why BTW-blogs with faux outrage are incredibly weak sources of real news.

  • http://bostonmaggie.blogspot.com Maggie

    For pity’s sake, Lou!!! What happened to you that you work this hard to run down America and her military? Did you suffer some trauma at the hands of the Boy Scouts as a child? Were all your smores’ marshmallows burnt? Did you have a bad experience at a John Wayne movie? Maybe you stuck to the buttery theater floor & your friends left? Did a Norman Rockwell print fall of the wall and bonk you on the head? Were you 4F? Did a Marine steal your girlfriend?

    Do you even read these posts? Really read them and contemplate the point that’s being made? Or do you just skim them, pull out a few buzz words and make them fit your America-hating narrative?

    You reference the last time we had this discussion – so I will just do the same and quote my friend Byron

    “My daddy once told me that the only way to talk to a foolish or stupid man was to nod your head and say, “Uh huh”.

    “Uh huh”.”

    +1

  • RickWilmes

    Skippy-San,

    brings up several good points. The fact that women are abused under regimes that are based on the Koran may be why URR fights but that is not why the United States SHOULD fight. It is always important to remember the context in which the original decision to invade the country was made.

  • RickWilmes

    Maggie are the personal attacks really necessary. If you disagree with Lou explain why.

  • UltimaRatioReg

    Skippy,

    Not sure where you get the idea that Afghanistan “became” corrupt in 2003. Methinks there were many centuries of corruption, perhaps millenia.

    What you so condescendingly call “faux” outrage aside, the point of the post was hardly to justify invading Afghanistan, something I am sure you know. THIS is the future they would have for us, and they despise us as apostates because we reject this twisted and barbaric form of “religion”.

    There were considerable voices who didn’t think US ground forces should have landed in Europe in 1944. But the fight was for the same reasons, that the perpetrators of this type of brutality had a stated goal of exporting it to the rest of the world, England and America included. There were even those who labeled the landings in France to be a hideous mistake because outrages were occurring in the Soviet Union, as well. But we fought that kind of evil where and when we could. The world that emerged was not perfect at all, but the alternative of National Socialism and Hitler as a generations-long oppressor of Europe was infinitely worse.

    The choices today are remarkably similar. Check your news sources, and your history books.

  • http://fareastcynic.com Skippy-san

    But to argue that we invaded Afghanistan to stop the worst excess of Islam misses the point. Those excesses had gone on for a long time prior to 9-11-01. They still go on in nations who are our allies. And they go on in nations we will have nothing to do with ( Sudan, Zimbabwe, Congo, you fill in about six more). Even today-when we know about it, we don’t go there because we don’t have the means too and even if we did, it would not be in the long term national interest. They are going to have to fix themselves-just like the Afghans are going to have to fix themselves. The odds of either doing so are not good.

    Your WWII analogy does not hold water. The US invaded the continent to get to Germany because that was where the Germans were. If there were arguments against it is was not because of what the Soviets were doing, but perceptions of how strong the German Westwall was or was not. Churchill favored his Mediterranean strategy earlier because part of his job was to get the British Empire back-not a humanitarian endeavor.

    Add to all that , the fact that war itself is not a “moral” endeavor and cannot be justified on “moral” grounds. That is something that pontificating pundits with faux outrage forget. War is a cold calculating decision to pursue politics by other means.

  • Matt Yankee

    I was happy to read yesterday we finally sent a couple of Apaches across the border and they killed 60 or more which is many more than one predator strike on average. Why don’t we give the Agency Apaches or better yet let the Air Force and Navy loose in the tribal belt? Why can’t we figure out a way to make an Apache unmanned if that is the whole issue?

    I hate to see so many civilians flooded out like that but the flood has to have affects on the supply chains which is a real gift from the heavens. Any natural disasters or perceived signals from God that he is trying to kill them would seem helpful in destroying their morale and make them question the whole thing about paradise.

    Stoning people to death is the tip of the iceberg. Honor killings are also a barbaric trait of their religion and it has happened in OUR country.

  • UltimaRatioReg

    “But to argue that we invaded Afghanistan to stop the worst excess of Islam misses the point. Those excesses had gone on for a long time prior to 9-11-01.”

    Nobody is arguing that. Rather, radical Islam has declared its jihad against the infidels in the West, and has stated its goals that the above-described events in AFG should be the law of their lands and ours.

    It is not just the abuse of women.

    It is not just the brutality of their laws.

    It is not just the forcing of their religious laws into Islamic areas in Western nations.

    It is the goal of destroying our freedoms and our way of life, and that of our children, so that we are either converted or destroyed. Conversion means to them exactly what you see above. Failure to convert means an infidel’s death. They want that for us.

    Is not preventing such a thing worth fighting for?

  • Paul

    Simplistically put, we’re waging a war for political and economic ends while the other side is waging one for cultural and religious reasons. Same battlefield– different purpose and different determination of victory.

    Where’s Colonel Kurtz when you need him?

    Islam was spread by the sword from the very beginning– nearly overran most of Europe and North Africa but how many people in the US today are aware of the histories of ANY major religions including their own?

  • Byron

    Paul, only those of us who understood the importance of learning history… which is why I polished off the Durant’s History of Civilization my sophomore year in high school.

    Bottom Line: URR is dead on the money. I don’t care about the social underpinnings of Islam. I’m all in favor of making as many martyrs as they care to provide. Maybe one day soon we’ll cross the break-even point where people who care more about living in a civilized world than they do trying to force 7th century culture onto the 21st.

  • Matt Yankee

    Part of the problem is we can’t make their standard of living much worse…bomb the rock their hiding under and the next one uses the next rock.

    This is why we should be creating no go areas that surprises and prevents them from occupying the area or even setting foot over it without dying or getting very sick. We need to demonstrate as a superpower how we do not get bogged down and will use methods which decisively changes the game. Thus creating the certainty in their minds of our will to defeat them no matter what they think the rules of the game are.

    Al Qaeda #3 dead…one more time. Hoorah! Maybe the Predators are doing more than pricking after all.

  • UltimaRatioReg

    It took three days before any of the news media identified the German arrested in the “Mumbai-style” plot as a German Islamic Militant.

    He ain’t from Bader-Meinhof!

  • http://LCoat.tripod.com Lou Coatney

    If you boys are so intent on destroying Islam, why are you so eager to attack it in wasteful, STUPID, self-defeating wars of attrition and wills off in God-forsaken rat-holes like Afghanistan instead of its source?

    Isn’t this exactly like Hitler diverting and bogging down the Wehrmacht around and in Stalingrad and the Caucasus, instead of continuing to strike directly toward Moscow?

    What do you have to say for yourselves?

  • http://bostonmaggie.blogspot.com Maggie

    Rick, read the comment…it explains itself. And it was completely deserved.

  • UltimaRatioReg

    So Lou, where did you read I was intent on destroying Islam?

    Am I to be tolerant of radical Islam that vows as its rallying cry MY destruction?

    I am as tolerant of Islam as it is of me.

  • http://www.coatneyhistory.com Lou Coatney

    Islam is inherently radical, URR. There is nothing moderate about the Koran, and when radicals are around, moderate Muslims get very scared and quiet. If you are out to destroy “radical Islam,” you are out to destroy Islam, QED.

    Meanwhile, we’ve just had our chain jerked in Afghanistan: “Pakistan cuts NATO supply line after border firing” which was inevitable and can be expected to eventually become permanent.

    What do you propose we do now, strategic genius?

  • Byron

    Kill ‘em all, Lou, till they no longer threaten those I hold dear and the nation that I love.

  • http://www.coatneyhistory.com Lou Coatney

    That’s exactly what the Nazis were saying, Byron.

    Another development is the Russians claiming they are deepening their military security pact with China … and if we can’t get our supplies into landlocked Afghanistan through Pakistan and if Russia leans on the Central Asian states to close our supply routes through them ….

    And China historically allies with Pakistan against India … and Japan and India are cozying up.

    I’m waiting on your strategic genius to tell us how we can fix things now … just by holding on in Afghanistan … URR.

    If airspace is closed to us too, we may have a massacre of American troops on our hands equivalent to what happened to the British 2 centuries ago.

  • http://www.usni.org admin

    ALL: NO PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST OTHERS

    Yes, that means YOU

    ALSO: The level of snark is out-of-control.

  • UltimaRatioReg

    Lou,

    The post is about the evils of the Taliban.

    Your assertion that all of Islam is radical Islam is your view. Much like so many of your other assertions.

    I am as tolerant of Islam as Islam is of me.

  • http://www.coatneyhistory.com Lou Coatney

    And as an answer, I/we only get more sophism from you, URR.

    This blog is about the evils of fundamentalist – what you call “radical” – Islam justifying our now disastrous, over-extending war of attrition there. That’s why “Why We Fight” was chosen as a title.

    You’re not the only one blithely ignoring the other points I’ve raised, and our ignoring them has gotten us into the very dangerous military/security … strategic … MESS that we are in.

  • UltimaRatioReg

    Lou, when you stack one highly questionable assumption or opinion upon another and another, using twisted and sometimes tortured logic in doing so, and then ask a question as a result of that process as if the listener has no rational alternative but to agree with your assertions, you likely aren’t going to get an answer.

    Something about not dignifying it with a response, perhaps.

    Read the post again. Whether AFG is the right place to fight is beside the point to our servicemen and women there. But that does not mean that our enemies there are not evil and cruel and that our forces shouldn’t fight against that evil.

    If you think you know better, go and see for yourself.

  • Grandpa Bluewater

    Lou:
    Ahem…Pardon me.

    Please explain how the current operations in the Afghanistan-Pakistan theater are disastrous. What specific disasters are you refering to. I’m also curious about “overextending” since coalition warfare and economy of force have been omnipresent in the Operation Level of War considerations there since the beginning.

    I am also curious about who in the region has the power to close the airspace to us, and by what means?

    Perhaps you could enlighten an old duffer like I. Rather than just assert things.

  • Matt Yankee

    You see…I complain and snipe on wednesday and we are attacking over the border again by thursday…lol.

    Pakistan has as much leverage over us as we are willing to accept. What if we decided to limit their own supply lines to and from the land, sea and air or any of the three? They are testing us…call their bluff and kick them in the rear. And do not stop attacking…step it up.

    Lou…go plant a garden.

  • UltimaRatioReg

    “I complain and snipe on wednesday and we are attacking over the border again by thursday”

    Matt, you did that? Wow! :)

  • Matt Yankee

    OHHHH yes it was all me…your welcome. LOL

  • http://www.coatneyhistory.com Lou Coatney

    Then you should join URR and volunteer to go over there, MY.

    In my previous posting … “awaiting moderation” … I put:

    “It is also exhausting allied resolve and patience.”

    Over here in Norway, there has been media-generated public concern about Norwegian soldiers starting to enjoy killing Afghans. Tonight, I turned on the TV (to try to pacify my 4-week old daughter with the sound of ongoing human voices), and here is the head of Norway’s armed forces and various politicians debating whether Norwegian forces should remain in Afghanistan or pull out like the Dutch have … and it sounded like Norway is ready to follow them.

    Wake up, folks.

    Afghanistan is lost – and has been since Cheney&Bush&the neocons had us wrongfully invade Iraq – and we only do worse damage to ourselves trying to stay there.

    And meanwhile the Chinese are getting ready to move.

  • UltimaRatioReg

    Volunteered and went to war once already, Lou. You?

  • Grandpa Bluewater

    Lou:

    What is the level of combat troops engaged in the Rockpile by Norwegian Forces? A company? In any case a token. Is the loss of some token allies or even the effective ones a disaster? Perhaps a setback, but please, what is the disaster?

    What is your reaction to the view that Afghanistan is ours (the US) to lose? I am intrigued by your positions, pray elucidate?

  • http://www.coatneyhistory.com Lou Coatney

    An upcoming BBC dramatization of stoning … in Iran right after the revolution:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2010/oct/17/stoning-of-soraya-m-review

    Depleted Uranium is infinitely worse.

    I replied to your posts … rationally and substantively … but I was censored … again.

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