In Defense News, US Marine Colonel Mark Desens, CO of 26th MEU currently operating off the coast of Libya, had some very interesting and incisive comments regarding the need for the F-35B STOVL variant of the JSF.

Desens and others noted that the F-35B would be a vast improvement over the Harrier. Not only does it carry more weapons and fuel, its sensors allow it to target enemy air defenses and vacuum up intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance data and feed it back to the fleet.

“When you look at the capabilities of the F-35B and how much it expands the tool box, that aircraft is going to push us way out in front of any future potential threats out there,” the colonel said.

Read the full article here.

But what really jumps out from Col Desens’ comments is the possibility that a smaller aircraft carrier with such a weapon as the F-35B could have efficacy as an alternative to the traditional supercarrier that has been the sole contestant in the US Navy’s aircraft carrier building arena since the commissioning of the Forrestals in the late 1950s.

More from Colonel Desens:

“It would be lovely to have an aircraft carrier here, but there are not enough to go round,” said Col. Mark Desens, the commander of the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, which operates the AV-8Bs aboard the Kearsarge. “What we do have is the opportunity to do a lot of things with this vessel, and we are accomplishing a tremendous return on investment with these six STOVL jets.”

He continues:

“With an AV-8B or an F-35B, you get an immediate ability to start impacting a wide range of things,” Desens said. “As you look down the road, the need for a STOVL jet sells itself, because you are not going to get more aircraft carriers. An F-35B costs a lot less than a carrier.”Desens noted that a STOVL jet can also move ashore with troops as they push farther away from the beachhead, landing and flying from far smaller patches of ground than regular fixed-wing planes.

“You have tremendous operational flexibility if you are going to do a projected land war, like Iraq and Afghanistan, where those jets were sea-based…”

The nuclear-powered Nimitz-class super-carrier has been the symbol of US Naval power and influence for nearly four decades.   However, the price tag for such vessels will continue to rise.  The first of its class USS Gerald R. Ford is projected to cost upwards of $10 billion. While the Nimitz-class is expected to soldier on for several more decades, operating costs of the 102,000-ton, 5,000-sailor behemoths will continue to be a serious concern in this era of fiscal austerity.

With each crisis anywhere on the globe that involves US interests, the question that is invariably posed is “where are the carriers?”; the latest instance being a mere two weeks ago off Libya.   But, does every situation in which the question is asked have to be answered with a Carrier Battle Group built around a CVN?   Is it necessary to bring the extremely high-end solution to low- and medium- threat problems?  Is that now what we see with billion dollar warships chasing pirate skiffs off Somalia?

During the Second World War, smaller flattops provided air assets to amphibious assaults and other operations in what we now describe as the Littoral, such as is being conducted in Libya at present.  There were myriad reasons for this, but the predominant was the desire not to risk the trump cards, the Fleet Carriers, in confined waters and within range of enemy land-based weapons systems, any more than necessary.  One would think a 21st century corollary of that rule is still a good idea in today’s A2/AD environment, particularly as we look to the western Pacific.

With the building of the America (LHA-6) class of amphibs, it is possible that the Navy has itself a hull form that could be adapted for the role of smaller aircraft carrier.  At 45,000 tons, 844 feet long, with a beam of 106 feet, the Americas will be very similar in dimension, though with a higher displacement, to the famous Essex-class carriers of World War II, one might hesitate to label such a “light carrier”.   Perhaps, in a redux of previous nomenclature, the former term “attack carrier” (CVA) seems most descriptive.  As General Amos, Marine Commandant, noted in January of this year in a speech to the Surface Navy Association, the America class LHA is already “maximized for aviation” already.  So let’s take the next step of logic.

An adaptation of that warship class, one dedicated to Naval and USMC STOVL aviation assets, one that does NOT have an amphibious mission, doesn’t require billeting for 1,700 Marines and their equipment, that doesn’t have a requirement for V-22 or attack helicopters as a part of its organic air component (but still capable of handling them if desired), a warship like that could prove exceedingly handy and valuable to a fleet which may be looking at a shortage of its heavyweights.

Of course, the obvious argument about efficiency of sorties is a consideration, but would a warship with a complement of STOVL fighters of the capabilities expected of the F-35B create a new baseline for measuring such efficiency of sortie generation?  Would 60-65 aircraft still remain the minimum aircraft complement for efficient operation?  I would love to see some projections using the F-35B to that end.   The speed of the Americas might have to be enhanced, as the 22-knot capability may or may not be sufficient, but options may be available for more powerful propulsion systems to achieve desired speeds.

In addition, operating costs of such a ship would very likely be significantly less.  A crew of 1,000-1,200 Officers and Sailors, with a suitably-sized air component is less than half that of the 4,500-5,000 complement of the Nimitz/Ford CVNs.

If the number of CVNs in commission shrinks to 9 or even 8 in the coming decade, which is a distinct possibility, we are left with a shortage of assets to cover a world-wide commitment.  When the question is asked again, as it will be, “Where are the carriers?”, there are two answers that we should take great pains to avoid.

The first is “Rusting away in Philadelphia.”

The second is “Busy elsewhere, and not coming.”

A STOVL-dedicated CVA based on the America-class LHA may provide a cost-effective and combat capable alternative to the CVBG that may or may not be available when we need it.   If we are to maintain a global power projection presence, as the Maritime Strategy asserts, the approach offered here deserves more scholarship than it has been given.




Posted by UltimaRatioReg in Air Force, Aviation, Foreign Policy, Hard Power, Marine Corps, Maritime Security, Navy, Piracy, Uncategorized

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  • USNVO

    Grandpa,
    And if you just need to deliver, I don’t know, 500 pies as opposed to 2000, across country, do you still want a huge 18 wheeler with the associated costs or will a smaller truck work? Of course your example isn’t really that reasonable since we are not delivering things. Perhaps a travel coach like a Greyhound versus a smaller bus. Does the benefit of a common, more capable, but smaller fleet overcome the problem that three quarters of your buses are normally half empty and you have destinations you would like to serve but can’t justify with the higher cost or limited fleet size?

    The discussion of carrier size is similiar to the discussion of the KC-X tanker. A bigger aircraft does more on the extreme scenario, but every single fight it is more expensive to operate. Is the bigger aircraft worth it? What if you have a fleet of tankers, is it still worth it?

    A Gas Turbine powered, integrated electric drive medium sized carrier with a third of the crew of a CVN (personnel costs are by far the biggest part of the life cycle costs) could cost half as much and easily carry half as many aircraft and fly half as many sorties in a day (after all, you can only land one aircraft at a time).

    For the vast majority of possible future scenarios, the smaller carrier is probably enough. And two smaller carriers are in many ways superior to one large one (besides the being in two places at once thing).

    Lets look at three scenarios
    Force A: All CVN all the time: 10-11 CVNs
    Force B: Mixed force: 7 CVNs and 6 CVLs
    Force C: All CVLs, all the time: 20 CVLs

    Against a high end opponent, Force A, the all CVN force, is probably better. With up to 6 available all the time, you have enough redundancy and the superior sustained sortie generation, larger ordnance magazines, and endurance all work to your advantage. So from a battle force standpoint, Force A is better. But when was the last time we used the battle force?

    Against low end opponents, say Libya, force C is better. With 10 or more available, I can be in more places at once with enough force. With two CVLs available, I can do around the clock flight ops or be in two places at once. A CVN is overkill, even if it is more capable of sortie generation than two CVLs. So from a maritime security, cooperative engaement standpoint, Force C is better. But you still have to watch out for the high end threat.

    No surprises so far, but what if you have a mixed force. I don’t know. But the benefits are many. You have greater redundancy with a larger force. You still have 3-4 CVNs to cover the high end, but also 3-4 CVLs to cover the low end. So every time you do student aviator quals, you don’t need a CVN. Did we really need a CVN off Haiti (either time) or would a CVL work just as well? You can be in more places at once than with an all CVN force and presence matters. Would two modern ESSEXs or MIDWAYs really be that inferior to a FORD. Would a battle force of 2 CVNs and 2 CVLs be less capable than 3 CVNs? Sure if you compare them one on one, the CVN is better, but what about force on force?

    Of course the same could be said for the current surface fleet or, for that matter, the submarine fleet. When all you have are high end ships, you end up using them to do all the low end missions like chasing pirates, doing presence missions, multi-lateral training, maritime intercept operations, or rescuing refugees. A balanced fleet might allow your high end combatants to concentrate on the high end, making them more effective while the low end ships handle the other missions and augment the high end ships when needed. Its worth looking at without a kneejerk reaction either way.

    Simple metrics like cost per gallon delivered, sorties per day, cost per seat mile, dollars per sortie, or cost per bomb dropped without any frame of reference or qualifiers, rarely tells the whole story.

    URR:
    You are comparing apples and oranges. A dedicated CVA with a unit price of $2.5billion would probably cost on the order of $6-8 billion for the first ship. The first FORD costs a lot more than the later ones will cost because all the R&D (design work, new catapults, new arresting gear, integrated electric drive, all electric auxillaries, etc) is payed with the first one. Estimates are it will cost about the same as a NIMITZ class in unit production. Same dynamic applies to your CVA.

  • B.Smitty

    If we already have LHAs, don’t we have most of what a CVL offers?

    Why not a conventional Ford? Yes it would require significant redesign, but dropping the nuclear requirement should decrease the up front and life cycle costs on subsequent ships. If we could get back up to 12+ super carriers, maybe that’s enough?

  • Grandpa Bluewater

    Why redesign it. Waste of money we don’t have. If you must modify a late in life LHA as a test bed.

    Life cycle costs include fuel. The effect of time off station chasing the oiler isn’t in the formula.

  • Grandpa Bluewater

    USNVO: I think we’ve stretched the analogy beyond the edge of validity.
    The LPH was developed and proven on clapped out Essex hulls, once validated, they went to new construction, and didn’t get much of it right (McNamara, Hhok, ptui) the first time.

    Take a high milage LHA and modify it, run it as your CVL test bed and see if the F35 VSTOL delivers the goods. Try before you buy.

  • Byron

    What Grandpa said…amazing how us old farts think alike!

  • UltimaRatioRegis

    “Take a high milage LHA and modify it, run it as your CVL test bed and see if the F35 VSTOL delivers the goods. Try before you buy.”

    Absolutely. Let’s break free from the concept of calling something “the future of the Navy” before the steel (or aluminum) has even hit salt water…. and you know what I mean!

  • B.Smitty

    Grandpa Bluewater,

    The GAO did an analysis on the cost-effectiveness of conventional vs nuclear carriers back in ’98.

    http://www.gao.gov/archive/1998/ns98001.pdf

    Granted, some of this analysis was “back of the napkin”.

    There were a number of trade-offs, however they showed that time off station hitting an oiler was very similar between the two. CVNs still have to replenish JP-5 and munitions every 3 days or so of heavy use. CVs have to hit an oiler more frequently when transiting, but the differences in transit times was not that great (IMHO) because escorts still need to refuel.

    There would be significant up-front costs to redesign, yes. My assumption is that follow on vessels would be much cheaper (both in acquisition and life-cycle costs). In the long run, this differential would result in a large net savings.

    Some of this depends on the price of oil, but both CVs and CVNs use a lot of JP-5, so they are both heavily dependent on oil prices. We may need to purchase additional CLF ships, but we probably need to do that anyway.

    The GAO did not investigate the potential savings from using modern gas turbines instead of a steam plant. This should significantly reduce manning.

    Lastly, going to an all conventional CV fleet allows us to reduce the infrastructure required to build and sustain naval nuclear plants.

  • B.Smitty

    Why do we even need to modify LHAs? Just use them as-is. A CVL version won’t be THAT much better. Definitely not “apples-to-oranges”, maybe “apples-to-bigger-apples”.

    Neither has the force multipliers (e.g. AEW, buddy tanking, jamming, COD), and they rely on the most risky F-35 variant.

  • UltimaRatioRegis

    B Smitty,

    Any modifications I suggest to a modified LHA-6 is because such a warship would no longer have an amphibious mission, and not be required to carry 1,700 Marines, their equipment, cargo or attack helos.

    Real estate being at a premium on every ship, those spaces freed up by not having those requirements might be very useful if some design changes were done.

  • Byron

    Smitty, nuke carriers do not burn fossil fuels..their aircraft and the ships of the group do. If you use a convential carriers expenditures in the equation, the fuel DOUBLES…both the fuel to run the carrier, and the fuel for aircraft and other ships.

    Minor, but important difference…

  • B.Smitty

    URR,

    I agree that modifications would make it a modestly better CVL, but is it worth the cost? LHAs can and have operated as CVLs, while retaining the ability to carry Marines (a very handy feature). If the task exceeds the capacity of one LHA, add another, supplement with land-based air, or assign a CVN.

    Just MHO.

  • B.Smitty

    Byron,

    The GAO looked at this in the report I posted earlier. During ODS, conventional carriers burned around 2,700 barrels of DFM and 6,500 barrels of JP-5 per day. (Table III.2 on page 128)

    I wonder if a modern, conventional gas turbine plant would be more efficient?

  • Byron

    Smitty, it would not matter; your comparison does not work. The ONLY fossil fuels a CVN uses is those she either hands off to other ships or to her air wing.

  • B.Smitty

    Byron,

    Just pointing out it’s not necessarily “double”.

    The CVN requires a lot of expensive baggage to design, build, maintain, train crews on, and dispose of its nuclear plant. For example, the GAO estimates it cost $900 million (FY97) to inactivate and dispose of a Nimitz CVN, compared to just $53 million for a conventional carrier. I imagine it’s a lot higher now.

  • Byron

    So now the objection is disposal? Have you any idea how man power intensive a steam plant is? Or that it requires regular maintenance that isn’t cheap? Or that finding people that know how to work on steam plants is going to be expensive?

    pk, where are you, dude?

  • B.Smitty

    Byron,

    As i said before, no need to go back to a steam plant. EMALS doesn’t need it.

    Use modern gas turbines and/or diesels with integrated electric propulsion. The British CVF uses two Rolls Royce MT30s and two Wärtsilä 38 diesel engines.

  • Grandpa Bluewater

    Gas turbines are gas hogs. JP fuels are “jet propulsion” fuels, for the planes, hence a constant (sort of, varies mostly with tempo of flight ops and composition of the air wing)unless you go with gas turbines. Fuel is an art and science all by itself.

    Propulsion, hotel load, electronics, , hydraulics for what and where. All new, all different from what was pretty standard stuff. Fuel lines, day tanks, purifiers, filters, Fire Pumps?Well, there goes the installed firefighting systems standardization.

    Diesel is the fuel economy champ. If you thinks it’s easier than steam or gas turbine in warship application, mmm, not so much. It’s all about picking and living with the right engines. CODAG, or some other hybrid? Decisions, decisions. Electric swbds, distribution busses, fire pumps, oh my this is getting complex.

    All that new design work, got anybody in mind with recent very large warship expertise? Brooklyn, Boston, Mare Island, Hunters Point, Charleston? Oh dear, gone with the wind.

    Savings? Maybe. Until it blows up, breaks down, won’t meet spec.

    This could get expensive. What extras are we getting. Oh yeah, we’re getting LESS. And we need more oilers.

    “And the Gods of the Copybook Headings say: “Stick to the Devil You Know.”

  • UltimaRatioReg

    Grandpa,

    Seems you could use that poem for explaining why we might have only 7 CVNs and none where a COCOM would need then when they are needed.

    “…they promised abundance for all, by robbing the selected Peter, to pay the collective Paul…”

    Maybe you live with 22 knots or whatever propulsion plant improvements can be made on the current LHA-6 design to get a little higher.

  • B.Smitty

    Grandpa Bluewater,

    The up-front design work would be significant. No argument there. In addition to the points you mentioned, designing the gas turbine intakes and exhausts would be particularly challenging.

    I’m going off of the GAO report’s conclusions that the resulting carrier would be much less expensive to build and operate over its lifetime.

    There are residual benefits like shorter maintenance cycles (which can lead to greater availability), and fewer foreign and domestic basing restrictions, greater ability to surge while in maintenance cycles.

    The combination of shorter conventional carrier maintenance cycles, and homeporting at foreign bases could mean significantly higher deployed availability from fewer carriers. The GAO estimated a force of 10 conventional carriers could have 29 more days of presence coverage than 10 CVNs, just due to shorter depot maintenance cycles. (303 days vs 274 days) This meant that we could get by with one fewer CV and still provide the same annual coverage.

    We can also put older conventional carriers in the reserve fleet rather than retiring them, or sell them off to allies when we’re done with them.

    Converting an LHA into a CVL probably would be cheaper. However, the resulting carrier would be hamstrung by its inability to carry the critical force multipliers, and could not operate forthcoming unmanned systems (UCAV, UCLASS). And if the F-35B dies, it would just be an expensive, inefficient LPH.

  • Byron

    Here’s another wrench in the gears…our LHAs are simple straight decks, thus, our VTOL/VSTOL jets HAVE to take off vertically. The Brits discovered the sloping ramp (which the Sov’s shamelessly stole) so that their Harriers would not need to use so much fuel just taking off. This means your Marine F/A-35s are going to have a lot less fuel to a) get to and from the battlefied and b) will be able to carry less ordinance (see “A”)

  • B.Smitty

    Byron,

    Harriers routinely use rolling takeoffs from LHAs (not VTOL). A ski jump just allows for significantly heavier loads.

    Presumably any LHA conversion would include one.

  • Grandpa Bluewater

    Smitty: It’s about the economy. The price of fuel is going up, way up. It won’t be cheaper.

    If we were a major industrial power, we wouldn’t be in this mess. As Jerry Pournelle says: we base our economy on pulling boxes off ships from China, opening the boxes and retailing the stuff inside, using money borrowed from Chinese bankers; then putting the stuff in foreign cars and driving home on Saudi oil. We are a great power by virtue of inertia, and the ships we threw away over the last 20 years.

    What’s the sign up ahead? Tipping point, slow to exit the great power freeway! But whyyyyyyyyyy?

    But I digress, sort of….
    Selective FRAM is cheaper than new construction, particularly when the pieces may or may not fit together and make the picture.
    This is where we came in…convert a collier, learn, convert a couple of orphan half finished cruisers,learn, screw up the first built for purpose (too small, no room for new systems)hull, then get it mostly right, then get the production model, then fram those for a generation while you scale up….familiar?)

    The carriers’ key role is CAPITAL SHIP. Not CAS. So naturally, some folks want to cut the capital ships to get CAS specific ships. Smaller, cheaper, yadda, yadda.

    Sweep the seas, then invade. Island hopping? Special case.

    The devil is in the details. The proposal is NOT much cheaper (specialized, new design equals expensive), and leapfrogging the learning curve which is 4 generations deep is a lure and a self deception. Revolutions don’t usually work so good (France, Germany, Russia, China), evolution is the better way to go.

    Give up the capital ships, give up command of the sea; which you have to have before the first CAS sortie.

    Navy too damn small. We’re (as a nation) broke and still spending. All the rest is commentary.

  • UltimaRatioReg

    Smitty,

    The idea of evaluating efficacy of a CVA with F-35 STOVL technology is not simply for the airframe itself, but as a proof of concept for whatever STOVL platform winds up being a success, as one is sure to be. The F-35B is two generations ahead of the last time the concept was tested using AV-8As.

    You would want a proof of concept before deciding to build anything. Grandpa’s excellent idea of using a high-mileage hull as an experimentation unit, like the USN was very good at some decades ago…

  • Grandpa Bluewater

    There is no “just” in “significantly heavier loads” when you are talking CAS. Less ordnance or less fuel=loiter time or range, take your pick. Big limitation, really big deal.

  • Byron

    “There is no “just” in “significantly heavier loads” when you are talking CAS. Less ordnance or less fuel=loiter time or range, take your pick. Big limitation, really big deal.”

    Don’t forget, when the bad guys are pouring it in on you, and you need warheads on foreheads, the biggest thing you need is time over the target area. Strafe, snake and nape are the medicines troops in contact need. If what you end up with is 10 minute overhead time, then the troops that this concept is suppposed to help will be screwed. Giving those -35s a ramp to take off from will mean more fuel/more weapons over the target area. It’s amazing to me that we never used that innovation on our LHA’s…since we got most of our good carrier ideas from the Royal Navy anyway.

  • B.Smitty

    Grandpa Bluewater,

    The price of fuel is a concern, but it’s a fraction of the total life cycle cost of a CV. Looking at the total, loaded cost (including indirect) for nuclear power vs conventional, I have a feeling conventional would still win out. But that’s just my guess.

    The initial CV would be expensive. But would we reap rewards 10 or 15 years down the road after churning out 2 or three ships? Who knows. If it means we could build and run carriers cheaper in the long run, and get more days on station out of the ones we have, it may worth revisiting.

    Staying the course certainly leverages everything we’ve learned so far, and preserves existing training, support and production pipelines.

    I would be interested to see a revised GAO study on the matter, with up-to-date cost data.

    I won’t hold my breath.

  • B.Smitty

    Byron,

    What’s going to give you more time on station? A STOVL F-35B off of a small deck? Or a UCLASS or UCAV with the potential for days of refueled endurance?

    A GA Avenger UCLASS will carry up to 3000 lbs internally with up to 20 hours of endurance. The endurance of an air-refuelable X-47 might only be limited by engine oil life (i.e. 100+ hours).

  • Byron

    If I was a Marine unit in close contact and in need of CAS, the LAST thing I’d want on call is a remotely piloted aircraft. Let the robots handle deep strike, thank you.

  • B.Smitty

    Byron,

    What if the choice is waiting for CAS from a manned aircraft for who knows how long, or getting it immediately from a long-endurance UCAV overhead?

  • Grandpa Bluewater

    Smitty:

    Checked the price at the pump lately? We control niether the price nor the availability of POL. This is a strategic liability of major proportions. Everything you have proposed reduces the capability of the force to the detriment of the power of the republic. The new study won’t find last time’s findings to be less so, but rather more.

    Our suppliers, of cash and oil, have gained the ability to counter our military power. It’s the logistics.

    I don’t favor making it worse. I favor making the case for a strong balanced fleet to deter war (including of course the Marines).

    Like I said before, It’s a matter of economics and we are in a death spiral.

    Those deck chairs are heavy, and it’s not accomplishing anything useful.
    Catch you next topic.

  • AT1 Charles H. Berlemann Jr

    B Smitty,

    Only problem is that we haven’t proven that UAV/UCAV’s are able to work in a heavy EW enviroment or at least that data isn’t available on the unclassified side of the house. So I wouldn’t completely depend on them just yet. They too need a proof of concept stage. We need to execute a few Fleet exercises under real world situtations with maybe Naval War College refs and trying to simulate a full 30 day line period of at sea time on both an L-class aviation ship and a CVN.

    As to the power for a carrier since we made the decision to standardize carrier power in the mid 1980′s to be nuclear, we have purged the large boiler systems from our training pipeline. So your going to have to add in the costs of expanding or even restarting that large boiler training pipe line. Along with purchasing a whole series of parts and maintenance facilities capable of providing repair to those boilers. Yes, some of the current generation of L-class aviation ships have boilers, but thsoe are different then what were installed into the Kitty Hawk class, Kennedy, and even Forrestall class carriers. In the era of Lean Six Sigma, AirSpeed, and a number of other business mantras that have entered the Department of Defense supply side; you will need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is advantageous for you to buy yet another seperate and different supply chain to manage.

    I would have to re-examine the GAO’s report, but I don’t think they factored in life cycle costs of maintenance between a boiler and a nuclear steam turbine propulsion system. The realities are as we saw onboard both the USS America near the end of her life and onboard the USS Iwo Jima in the late 1990′s; with a boiler explosion (a catastrophic event) the damage is severe enough that the ship is written off even though we just expended tons of money to extend its service life. As of yet, in either the surface side or the submarine side have we had a catastrophic propulsion failure in a nuclear plant.

    So realistically, this calls for proof of concept. That we could run a CVL using the F-35 in a VSTOL/STOVL situtation. That accepting the sorite generation rates and time on station will be less then a CVN in the same situtation; what are the advantages vs the disadvantages. Finally ending with an test deployment trying to fully prove the concept outside of the view of NavAirSysCom, Naval War College, USMC, and a slew of others; what a real deployment of a L-class ship modified to strictly be a carrier no more no less could preform in places where air power is needed but not a full carrier. Such as disaster assistance, covering NEO, supporting limit objective punative raids, etc. Once proof of concept has been done, then progress to purpose built ship and start all over again. Remember it took just over twenty years to get from converted coal ship to purpose built Yorktown class carriers and it took only another thirty years after that to hit the seminal large deck fleet carrier design in the Kitty Hawk class of which we haven’t varied from at all in the last 50 yrs.

  • Grandpa Bluewater

    Excellent summary, AT1.

  • USNVO

    Smitty, just a few points on a conventional FORD. Lets look at an apples to apples comparison.

    1. A FORD has over 270,000SHP for propulsion available plus all the electrical power. To duplicate that would require something like 8 MT30s (The brits go slower but the USN has different requirements as well as different planes). So, image the island size of a CV, now make it 3-4 times greater (3x the amount of air per horsepower in, 3x out for a GT over steam). The below deck loss of space is even worse. That directly leads to less deck space, less hanger space, less of everything. The whole design of the FORD is maximized to increase flightdeck to allow greater sorties (33% greater per day). A conventional FORD would probably do no better than a NIMITZ, and probably not as well.
    2. A FORD will never refuel in 50 years, so the maintenance advantage of a CV over a CVN just went out the window (no more long and expensive ROHs which take several years).
    3. Fuel bunkerage for a non-nuclear FORD are probably 50% greater than a CV, which already carried less of overything, (ordnance, aviation fuel, spares, food, etc) as a Nimitz class.
    4. Survivability. One of the most vulnerable parts of a ship is the engineering plant. A CVN is armored without huge intakes and exhaust. You conventional CV has huge intakes and exhaust vulnerable to damage as well as making the ship more vulnerable.

    A Nuclear ship is more expensive to build, probably a little cheaper to operate over time, and more expensive to dispose of. However, it also offers
    1. More sorties per day
    2. More ordnance magazines
    3. Greater aviation bunkerage (usually at least 50% better
    4. Less maintenance on the aircraft (no stack gas on aircraft)
    5. Less disruption to pilots landing (no stack gas)
    6. More time on station and fewer oilers
    7. Better survivability
    8. More internal volume and better optimized volume

    All in all, its probably worth the added cost when you are talking something the size of a CVN and when you already have a nuclear infrastructure in place to support it.

  • Byron

    And there is nearly zero infrastructure to support 1200 pd steam boilers.

  • B.Smitty

    Why do we keep talking about steam boilers?

    USNVO,

    1. 200MWs equals six 36 MW GT30s. However my guess is it would be a combination of turbines and diesels. Yes, it would significantly impact the island design and below deck spaces. This would, in turn, impact the maximum, theoretical sortie rates. However, as we’ve seen in the real world, carriers can’t produce their maximum theoretical rates except in specifically tuned exercises. Operationally, the sortie rate depends far more on the distance to targets and the number of aircraft carried than on the max theoretical rate. So, IMHO, while nice, optimizing for strikes against 200nm range targets isn’t tremendously relevant in the real world. The GAO paper determined no real difference in the actual sortie rates between CVs and CVNs during ODS. I imagine a re-run in OIF and OEF would show the same thing.

    2. IIRC, the Ford reactors still have to be refueled once. They do reduce the number or time of maintenance intervals (I can’t remember which) over their life, but some of that would be carried over to a conventional Ford as well.

    3. The GAO report showed the difference in fuel bunkerage between the CVs and CVNs had less to do with different propulsion and more to do with design requirements. In any case, operational usage data showed that CVs and CVNs both have to hit a replenishment ship every 3-3.5 days of heavy use.

    4. From the GAO report, “Officials of the Naval Sea Systems Command told us, according to their survivability analyses, neither type of carrier possesses any inherent, overriding advantage over the other in its susceptibility to detection or its vulnerability to the damage inflicted by the weapons. They also said that the two types of carriers are very similar in construction, were built to the same shock standards, and use similar machinery and equipment. Thus, while there are some differences, neither has a distinct advantage withstanding or recovering from the effects of enemy weapons that can be attributed specifically to the ship’s propulsion type.”

  • Byron

    Smitty, what part of “the CVN does not need to take on fuel for her engines every 3-5 days” do you not understand? The oiler is there ONLY for aviation fuel and any fuel the carrier might carry to act as an oiler for her escorsts…and ONLY that. Furthermore, the fuel for gas turbines is expensive…would you ask the Navy to purchase more than they already do?

  • B.Smitty

    Byron,

    I understand that a CVN only has to take JP-5 every few days while a CV has to take JP-5 and DFM. During ODS, the difference didn’t change the frequency with which CVs or CVNs had to refuel.

    AFAIK, MT30s require the same fuel delivered to every escort and amphibious ship.

    Of course cost of fuel has to be factored into the analysis. But so does total direct and indirect costs of designing, building, operating, and disposing of nuclear power plants.

  • AT1 Charles Berlemann Jr

    Smitty,

    The line from NavAirSysCom about carrier survivability has changed since ODS. In 2000 the US Navy used the USS America as a target and a test bed. The information generated and learned is still classified, but I would bet things were learned. Just as things were learned in the damage survival after the three major carrier fires in the 1960′s. Using a GAO report that is not well over 20yrs old to validate some concepts when technology has changed is questionable. We probably need to have the GAO do another study of recent carrier operations and update the numbers comparing and contrasting the Kitty Hawk class that were in combat during OEF vs the Nimitz and Roosevelt class CVNs.

    As to the questions with regards to steam boilers, simply cause that is the only other way to move a large ship like an L-class aviation ship through the water is via marine diesel engine or via a steam boiler. Most modern commerical cargo carriers, including the E-class container ships of the Maersk shipping line use marine diesels. Gas Turbines are great for smaller ships like the Destroyers and Cruisers, but they drink fuel like a fish. The US Army and US Marines have learned this with the M1 Abrams compared to the M60. During both ODS and OEF the rate of advance was highly tied to how fast the fuel was brought up for the Abrams units compared to the M60A3 equipped units.

    As to needing to put aircraft out further then 200nm from the fleet. That is a mission we strived for post-1942. Simply cause it protected the fleet from the opposing air. As we transition from WW2 to the Cold War, the ability to help form the third part of the nuclear triad and support the SIOP; lead to carrier aircraft being developed that can get away from the carrier and deep into enemy territory. We let that deep strike mission atrophy due to the belief that most of our conflicts would be similar to ODS where we could have the USAF near by and they would be able to preform the deep strike with thier platforms. Instead as we learned the hard way with OEF and we are learning with Operations over Libya. We still need deep strike capabilities since tanking support may not always be there or it might be severely limited.

    Again, we need to take an older LHA or even LHD. Convert it into this proposed CVL concept. Run some fleet exercises with it, take it on a few deployments where it could for the nucleus of a CVLBG. See how well it preforms the mission roles we expect of it. Then if that succeeds, work on building an purpose built CVL that expands on some of the lessons learned. We keep doing that we might have a CVL of some worth. The thing that would need to be accepted is that it would be severely hampered if we expected it to go toe to toe against another major fleet or even try and enter in combat against a significate land based air power threat. We might need to be willing to accept the loss of that battle group or unit in that situtation.

  • AT1 Charles Berlemann Jr

    I would also note that we tried turbo-electric drives on some capital ships for a while, but found them highly suspect to shock damage from even near misses. They were great to generate high speeds, but when the torpedos or bombs struck those power plants went off line pretty quick.

  • B.Smitty

    AT1,

    Earlier, I suggested using a combination of gas turbines and diesels in an integrated electric propulsion system. The 65,000 tonne British CVF CTOL carrier is doing just that with a combination of MT30s and Wärtsilä diesels.

    I agree that new studies with updated information would be required to give this idea any legs. I don’t see it happening though.

    On sortie ranges, I think greater than 200nm should be considered the norm, and we should optimize for that. The Ford class tries to optimized for the sub-200nm, maximum sortie rate. That might look good on paper, but in the real world it isn’t as useful.

    Just MHO.

  • http://www.grandlogistics.blogspot.com GrandLogistics

    Hello,

    integrated electric propulsion is currently in service on the British Daring class,Wave class and Albion class and will power the 65,000 tonne Queen Elizabeth class.
    I believe it is also used on the American L.H.D. 8/U.S.S.Makin Island,the Lewis and Clark class an Zumwalt class.
    I am sure there must be plenty of others.
    In many of those cases the system was designed by Converteam.

    With electric catapults,there is no longer any need for boilers.

    To generate 270,000 shp,would require 6 MT30 generator sets (48,000 shp each)weighing about 30 tonnes each and probably costing around $25 Million per set.
    The uptakes would be no larger than on the Kitty Hawk class carriers.
    Take a look at the size of the uptakes on U.S.S. Freedom/L.C.S.1,she has 2 MT30s.

    The second Queen Elizabeth class carrier is costing just $1,600 Million to build,annual running costs are expected to be about $80 Million a year and fuel costs were estimated to be about 5% of lifecycle costs.

    Historically catapult aircraft have generated sortie rates in combat just as high as vertical landing aircraft have managed.
    If an aircraft spends hours flying a sortie and then has hours on deck,the few minutes saved by landing vertically make little difference to how many sorties can be flown in a day.

    The longer endurance of an F35C over an f35B also means you will be able to generate the same number of hours on station with fewer sorties.

    GrandLogistics.

  • http://www.grandlogistics.blogspot.com GrandLogistics

    Hello,

    edit to the above,26 tonnes may be the weight of the MT30 on it’s own,and 77 tonnes the weight as a complete generator set.

    Also,I understand a Refit and Complex Over Hall (R.C.O.H.) on a Nimitz class costs $3,100 Million,about twice the cost of building H.M.S.Prince of Wales.

    The nuclear carriers are incredibly capable,much more so than the Queen Elizabeths,but the are also incredibly expensive to buy and operate.

    GrandLogistics.

  • Byron

    Mr. Logistics: An aircraft launched via catapault will carry much more fuel and ordinance that one that launches via VTOL or VSTOL. This equates into reduced combat range, loiter time and payload over target.

  • Chuck Hill

    While the original plan for Queen Elizabeths was a VSTOL, current plan is for an electric catapult.

  • UltimaRatioReg

    Chuck, would an electric cat be an option for a STOVL airframe to be able to carry more fuel/ordnance at launch? If so, let’s experiment with it.

  • AT1 Charles Berlemann Jr

    Intergrated Electric Propulsion. Okay, as we are finding out with the LCS platforms the MT30′s are having maintenance issues from being installed improperly and in general the high maintenance fact from having an untried system installed, http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4787997 just to cite a recent example. You can cite what the expected design for the CVF Queen Elizabeth may look like and may operate, but they are still in the builder’s yards and have not conducted any real world operations. On top of that just like this proposal for the USN’s own CVL, they are married at the hip to the F-35 project succeeding across the board in all requirements. It to use the latest terminology, become a platform “Too big to fail”.

    With respects to history, the loss of DC efforts onboard some of the major ships in Pearl Harbor and the USS Lexington were from thier expensive, complex, and technological advance engines. When these ships suffered heavy shock damage from underwater explosions and near misses from bombs overhead. As thier engine plants, which were turbo-electric drives, went off line the damage control and war fighting efforts went off line as well. Most self defense guns had to depend on local hand power to train and elevate, loss of water for fire-fighting efforts as well, finally loss of power across the ships made communication efforts complicated as well in both the DC and warfighting efforts.
    I just remain highly skeptical that this proposed intergrated electronics engine system will work out right. The same with the EMALS system. We have been toying with EMALS since the mid-90′s and only recently has Lakehurst been able to conduct some successful launches with it. Technology advancements are great, but sometimes evolutionary needs to come before revoultionary.

  • B.Smitty

    AT1,

    If EMALS doesn’t work, the Ford class is likely sunk. Ripping it out and installing steam cats is probably cost-prohibitive.

    We wouldn’t have to use MT30s, There are other options. LM2500+G4s produce almost the same power.

    Neither LCS design uses Integrated Electric Propulsion. The LHD-8 and LHA-6 do, as will the DDG-1000s.

    Now that the British have committed to CTOL (something they should’ve done from the beginning IMHO), they are no longer wedded to the F-35. If it fails, they can always buy Rafale or F/A-18s.

  • AT1 Charles Berlemann Jr

    Smitty,

    I understand what your saying. I am just trying to express that it appears to this sailor, our ship building priorities have been messed up in the last few years. Instead of evoloving our technology we are trying to be revolutionary with our technology. It recent years this has bit us in the rear with cost overruns in platforms and costly repairs when systems weren’t installed properly. Those have causes costs in such platforms as the LCS, DD(X), CG(X), Deepwater cutter, LPD-17, Virgina SSN’s. I would also remind you that the CVN-76 was originally slated to be the first carrier to have EMALS when that bid was initally signed off on by NAVSYSCOM in 1994, instead due to the tech not being ready on time, instead she was plumped for the C13 Mk2 cats. The plan again when I heard about EMALS back in an Proceedings article almost two decades now; was that EMALS upgrade is planned for all ships with steam cats during thier next RCOH. As we have seen that plan is being deviated from.

    I just ask that if we are going to do intergrated electric propulsion and all these other “vunder veapon technology” as a friend puts it; we test it small scale. Work the big kinks out first before we start sinking careers, mass sums of money, and wasted man hours into the process before the program becomes “too big to fail”

  • B.Smitty

    I feel your pain with regards to ship building priorities. We spent the last decade or two trying to “leap-ahead” everywhere, while skipping evolutionary advances.

    I was wrong about LHD-8 and LHA-6. They both use a hybrid electric drive, with the turbine directly connected to the reduction gear, and diesels connected via electric drives.

    DDG-1000 will use a full Integrated Electric Propulsion. That can serve as a test bed. Its power plant produces 78MW: a third of what would be needed on a conventional Ford.

    One nice thing about IEP is that the turbines and diesels don’t have to be co-located with the electric drives and reduction gears. They can be spread out around the ship, or put in locations that minimize inlet and exhaust routes. On the Queen Elizabeth, a gas turbine in a sponson is directly below each tower, outside of the hangar.

  • USNVO

    Smitty,

    - FORD has two 50year life of the ship reactors, no refueling required ever. They woll also have reduced maintenance requirements from the reactors on the NIMITZ class. Without a ROH, a conventional and nuclear carrier has about the same maintenance requirements (largely driven by other factors).

    - Your six MT30s only cover propulsion, you still need more for the other electrical loads. And you lose propulsive efficiency with electric drive (although the tech is getting better).

    - The whole point of the FORD is to maximize the ability to use airplanes. Put an island probably four to six times larger and in a different place on the ship and you significantly degrade its potential capabilities. A FORD (and a NIMITZ) can carry more aircraft although for a variety of reasons, they don’t.

    “The GAO paper determined no real difference in the actual sortie rates between CVs and CVNs during ODS. I imagine a re-run in OIF and OEF would show the same thing.”
    - Your confusing what we did with what we could have done. The fact that we did not use the full capability of either a conventional or nuclear carrier in recent conflict doesn’t say anything about their capability. The same is true with refueling. We used a 3 day on, 1 day off cycle because we did not need the full capability of the carrier and their airwings. That may not always be the case. For the same size, a nuclear carrier can carry more aviation fuel, ordnance, planes and everything else. We may not use the capability, but it is there.

    ” 4. From the GAO report, “Officials of the Naval Sea Systems Command told us, according to their survivability analyses, neither type of carrier possesses any inherent, overriding advantage over the other in its susceptibility to detection or its vulnerability to the damage inflicted by the weapons. They also said that the two types of carriers are very similar in construction, were built to the same shock standards, and use similar machinery and equipment. Thus, while there are some differences, neither has a distinct advantage withstanding or recovering from the effects of enemy weapons that can be attributed specifically to the ship’s propulsion type.””

    Except that the reactors are not vulnerable to losing power because the intakes and exhaust trunks are damaged. The armored deck is not penetrated by humoungous air intakes and exhaust trunks and there is no vulnerable stacks or intakes above the armored deck. A missile hitting on or below the island (most likely point of impact since it has the largest RCS) will take out most of the engineering plant by simply destroying the intakes. Even with a half diesel-half GT mixed plant, you are talking 4 times the air in, and out, as a Kitty Hawk class conventional carrier. Thats a lot of uptakes.

    You can argue that we don’t need the extra capability of a nuclear carrier, but the simple fact is, after a ship reaches a certain size, normally considered to be around 40-60k LT, a nuclear plant is better because the conventional plant just eats up to much space.

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